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5 min readPsychotherapist Catherine Morgan Schaffler spent years in private practice on Wall Street, where she noticed something strange about her high-achieving clients: the word perfectionism was being used to pathologize them. "I think language really helps control the way that we think about whether something is good or bad," she says, drawing a parallel to how the word "bossy" regulates authoritative qualities in girls and women. Schaffler wrote her book The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control to "nip that in the bud" before perfectionism becomes another tool for "quelling the ambition and expressions of power in women."
Perfectionism is a neutral impulse, not a flaw
Schaffler defines perfectionism not as a character defect but as a natural human impulse: seeing the gap between reality and an ideal, and feeling compelled to bridge it. "I think it's actually one of the forces that make the world go around," she says. The problem isn't the longing itself — it's how you pursue the ideal (in a way that hurts you or others) and why you pursue it (to earn belonging or self-worth through external validation). Healthy perfectionism, by contrast, is about genuine ambition and improvement. This reframing matters because the popular message to "find balance" has become, in practice, just "being good at being busy" — an elusive standard that blames individuals for not achieving so
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What you'll learn
- 1 (00:18) **Hosts discuss their own perfectionism** - Mariel and Andy reveal their personal relationships with perfectionism, setting up the episode's reframing of the trait.
- 2 (01:31) **Introducing guest and her core insight: five types of perfectionists** - Andy introduces psychotherapist Catherine Morgan Shaffler, author of *The Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control*, who identified five distinct perfectionist types through her work with high-achieving women.
- 3 (03:25) **How the "perfectionist" label is gendered and pathologized** - Shaffler argues that calling someone a perfectionist is a gendered form of control, similar to calling a woman "bossy," and that the popular advice to "find balance" is a trap.
- 4 (06:07) **Takeaway 1: Perfectionism is a neutral tool, not a bad word** - Shaffler reframes perfectionism as a natural, healthy human impulse that becomes problematic only in the *how* and *why* of its pursuit.
- 5 (07:39) **Takeaway 2: The five perfectionist types and their pros/cons** - Shaffler details each type, emphasizing that there is nothing wrong with the longing to improve, but the method and motivation matter.
- 6 (14:40) **Takeaway 3: Using your type as a starting place for self-understanding** - Knowing your perfectionist category is a perspective, not a fixed truth, and serves as a tool to recognize patterns and ask what serves you.
- 7 (15:40) **The tool of "explaining" vs. "expressing"** - Shaffler offers a practical communication tool to help perfectionists connect better with themselves and others.
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Show Notes
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