AI Summary
5 min readIn 2024, Colossal Biosciences announced the birth of Romulus and Remus, two dire wolf pups engineered from a gray wolf genome with 20 specific edits derived from fossil DNA. The animals are now nearly two years old, weigh over 120 pounds, and have light-colored coats and a more robust build than gray wolves. They are not domestic animals—they are skittish, wild, and will not be released into the wild, as they would compete with existing gray wolf populations. The point, as Dr. Beth Shapiro explains, was not just to make a dire wolf, but to prove that the tools of synthetic biology work, and to use that awe to fund and develop technologies that can save living species from extinction.
The Species Problem: Biology Doesn’t Care About Our Categories
A central theme of the conversation is that “species” is a human concept, not a biological reality. Shapiro explains that the biological species concept—two organisms are the same species if they can produce fertile offspring—is just one of many valid frameworks. A genetic species concept uses a threshold of DNA similarity; a geographic species concept might call a Florida panther a different species from a Texas panther. None of these are wrong, but none are absolute. Biology doesn’t care.
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What you'll learn
- 1 (00:07) **Defining De-Extinction** - Shapiro explains that dire wolves were recreated by engineering 20 specific edits from fossil genomes into a gray wolf background, and clarifies that the same tools are used for de-extinction and conservation.
- 2 (03:07) **What is a Species?** - Shapiro explains that "species" is a human concept, not a biological reality, and that different species concepts (biological, genetic, geographic) are used for different purposes.
- 3 (07:48) **Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Human Origins** - The conversation moves to human evolution, using Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA to explore species concepts and what makes us human.
- 4 (26:20) **Neanderthal Genes and Modern Health** - Shapiro discusses how Neanderthal DNA can be adaptive or maladaptive in modern environments, affecting traits like immunity and disease susceptibility.
- 5 (30:43) **Picking a Species for De-Extinction** - Shapiro outlines the technical, ethical, and ecological criteria for selecting which extinct species to bring back.
- 6 (36:12) **The Ecological Role of a Mammoth** - Shapiro explains how a de-extinct species like the woolly mammoth could help restore an ecosystem by filling its ancient niche.
- 7 (41:07) **Why the Dodo?** - Shapiro explains that the dodo was chosen to develop new genetic tools specifically for birds, which have different reproductive biology than mammals.
+ Full timestamped outline available in the app
Show Notes
Dr. Beth Shapiro, PhD, is an evolutionary biologist and Chief Science Officer at Colossal Biosciences. Her work focuses on de-extinction and wildlife conservation efforts. We discuss genetic differences among humans, and how ancient DNA and modern embryology are being used to de-extinct and protect woolly mammoths, dodo birds, and dire wolves, as well as to help conserve endangered species. We also explore the ethical implications of de-extinction and how synthetic biology can help build a more bio diverse and resilient world.
Read the full episode show notes at hubermanlab.com.
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Timestamps
(00:00:00) Beth Shapiro
(00:02:35) What is a Species?, Taxonomy, Bison
(00:09:13) Neanderthals, Denisovans, Homo Sapiens
(00:12:38) Sponsors: Joovv & Eight Sleep
(00:15:27) Hybrid Ancestry, “Grolar” Bears
(00:20:30) Homo Sapiens & Neanderthal Interbreeding, Genes; Denisovans
(00:25:53) Neanderthal Genes, Immunity, Red Hair; Eye Color
(00:30:17) De-Extinction, Species Selection, Woolly Mammoths
(00:38:08) Sponsor: AG1
(00:39:21) Bird De-Extinction, Dodo; Reproduction & Genes
(00:47:40) Development Biology, Woolly Mammoth, Elephants
(00:54:49) Dire Wolf, Synthetic Biology, Ethics
(01:03:26) De-Extinction, Ecology, Conservation, Ethics
(01:09:22) Ecosystem Resilience, Thylacine; Preventing Extinction, Quolls
(01:15:45) Sponsor: Function
(01:17:23) Modeling Ecological Impact, Mosquitoes, Gene Drives; Panthers
(01:25:50) Advisory Panels, Synthetic Biology Education
(01:29:13) Genetic Selection in Humans, Human-Shaped World
(01:38:25) Black-Footed Ferrets, Genetic Rescue
(01:47:05) Dire Wolf; Ecological Modeling, New Technology & Public Fear
(01:55:09) Artificial Wombs; Current Issues, Conservation & Red Wolf
(02:01:26) Science Pioneers; Colossal Public Education
(02:04:31) Beth’s Science Origin Story; Dinosaurs
(02:13:42) Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow, Reviews & Feedback, Sponsors, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter
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