The Joe Rogan Experience
The Joe Rogan Experience

#2534 - Annie Jacobsen

July 31, 2026

AI Summary

5 min read

In 2019, an explosion occurred at the Vector lab, Russia’s highest-level biosafety facility in Siberia. Nothing got out. But the incident revealed something perhaps more unsettling: American and Russian scientists were on WhatsApp together, calling each other to get the real story within hours. By 2024, that backchannel no longer exists. Annie Jacobsen, who has spent years writing about existential threats from nuclear war to biological weapons, argues this loss of human contact between adversaries may be the most dangerous development of all.

Jacobsen’s latest book, Biological War: A Scenario, is structured as a Pentagon-style war game. It tracks a fictional but meticulously researched outbreak of pneumonic plague—a pathogen with a 100 percent case fatality rate unless antibiotics are given within 24 hours. The real subject, however, is not the disease itself. It is what happens when society breaks down.

The threat that makes nuclear war look simple

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What you'll learn

  • 1 Biological War — Navigational Outline
  • 2 (00:15) **Opening: The Terror of Biological Weapons** - Joe and Annie set the grim tone, comparing biological war to nuclear war
  • 3 (02:52) **The Fauci Hearings and Gain-of-Function Research** - Discussion of Anthony Fauci's congressional testimony and the controversy over gain-of-function research
  • 4 (10:34) **The Catch-22 of Biodefense Research** - The contradiction of needing to create weapons to defeat weapons
  • 5 (13:46) **Comparing Fatality Rates: COVID vs. Pneumonic Plague** - A stark contrast in lethality between COVID and potential bioweapons
  • 6 (17:32) **The Media Blackout on Fauci Hearings** - Criticism of mainstream media ignoring the congressional hearings
  • 7 (20:41) **Annie's Motivation for Writing "Biological War"** - How her approach differs from her previous books

+ Full timestamped outline available in the app

Guests on this episode

Show Notes

Annie Jacobsen is a Pulitzer Prize finalist, investigative journalist, and bestselling author. Her latest book, "Biological War: A Scenario," is out now.
www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/783250/biological-war-by-annie-jacobsen/
www.anniejacobsen.com


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