AI Summary
5 min readIn July 2024, Ben Wickler, then chair of the Wisconsin Democratic Party, sat for an optimistic interview about Kamala Harris’s momentum. By the time he spoke with Ezra Klein again, Harris had lost Wisconsin by less than a single percentage point — the fifth of the last seven presidential races in the state decided by that margin. Wickler’s first reaction on election night was a sinking feeling that nothing they had done mattered. Then he saw that Senator Tammy Baldwin had won. The next day, he did what he calls “spreadsheet therapy”: digging into the data. Harris had outperformed Biden’s 2020 margin in every other battleground state. Trump voters often skipped down-ballot races; Harris voters did not. Democrats gained 14 state legislative seats and held the Senate seat. The loss was real, but it was not a rout. Wickler’s explanation for the national result is global: in every advanced Western democracy in 2024, the ruling party lost ground. The overwhelming driver was inflation, prices, and affordability — a sense that life at the economic brink had become unbearable. “The biggest issue of all,” he says, “was this fundamental economic malaise that people felt and they voted for change.”
What the Democratic Party Actually Is
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What you'll learn
- 1 (00:52) **What Is the Democratic Party?** - Ezra introduces Ben Wickler, former Wisconsin Democratic Party chair, and frames the episode around understanding the party as a flawed but necessary vehicle.
- 2 (02:27) **Why Harris Lost Wisconsin** - Wickler recounts election night anxiety and his "spreadsheet therapy" the next day, explaining the narrow loss.
- 3 (05:32) **Why the Democratic Party Brand Is So Unpopular** - Ezra presses on why the party remains deeply disliked even after Trump took office.
- 4 (08:08) **The Piles of Coal Problem** - Ezra recalls Wickler's famous quote about Democrats being "the people who get rid of the piles of coal," and the frustration that the coal pile is still there years later.
- 5 (11:00) **What People Think the Party Is vs. What It Actually Is** - Wickler distinguishes between the "amorphous blob" of all things Democrat-related and the formal party institutions.
- 6 (13:30) **Parties as Civic Fabric, Then and Now** - Wickler contrasts the historical role of parties in daily life with today's alienating experience of mass emails and texts.
- 7 (16:00) **Neutrality in Primaries and the Product Problem** - Ezra explores the tension between parties that once controlled nominations and now must stay neutral in open primaries.
+ Full timestamped outline available in the app
Guests on this episode
Show Notes
President Trump is very unpopular right now. But polls show the Democratic Party is just as unpopular – if not more so. So what can the party do about it?
But to answer that question, you first have to understand what the Democratic Party is. That is, mechanically, what is it? What powers does it have? When you call the Democratic Party, who picks up the phone? And how can that party, the official party, be reinvented for this era?
Ben Wikler has a unique perspective on this question. He transformed the Democratic Party of Wisconsin into a fund-raising, door-knocking powerhouse when he served as chair from 2019 to 2025. And he’s shared some of his insights from winning elections in a swing state in his new book, “This Is The Plan: How to End America's Meltdown and Save Democracy.”
In this conversation, we discuss Wikler’s vision for a reinvigorated party, as well as the kinds of changes he thinks Democrats need to embrace if they want to build a bigger tent and a national majority.
Mentioned:
“This Is How Democrats Win in Wisconsin” with Ben Wikler on The Ezra Klein Show
“GOP midterm strategy: Make it a ‘hate election’” by Marc Caputo
Book Recommendations:
Master of the Senate by Robert A. Caro
Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott
Sal & Gabi Break the Universe by Carlos Hernandez
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [email protected].
You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Julie Beer. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Johnny Simon. Cinematography by Kyle Kelley. Video editing by Steph Khoury and Arpita Aneja. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Shows is Annie-Rose
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