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5 min readEzra Klein interviews Buddhist teacher and author Pema Chödrön, whose book Comfortable with Uncertainty has shaped his approach to life. They discuss her teachings on relating to discomfort, uncertainty, and pain not by avoiding them but by becoming intimate with the physical sensations they trigger, drawing from her influences like Chögyam Trungpa and her own meditation experience.
Locating and Abiding in Bodily Discomfort
Chödrön explains that discomfort manifests physically, often as tightness or contraction in the solar plexus, throat, or stomach. Rather than running from it or trying to eradicate it—a reflexive human response—people should pause, locate the sensation, and abide there. This involves interrupting mental storylines, as learned in meditation, where thoughts are seen as interruptible rabbit holes. Instead of conceptualizing emotions like anger or fear, contact the raw feeling nonverbally. A key attitude is "agreeing" with it, as Zen master Kobun Chino Roshi described relating to fear: "I agree. I agree. I agree." For Klein, who once avoided risks due to uncertainty's grip, this recognition shifts avoidance into attention.
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What you'll learn
- 1 (00:59) **Ezra's Intro to Pema Chödrön** - Host shares why "Comfortable with Uncertainty" resonates, linking personal avoidance of uncertainty to life's inevitability
- 2 (03:33) **Central Thesis: Relate to Discomfort** - Pema explains not avoiding uncertainty/fear but becoming intimate with it physically
- 3 (05:44) **Abiding in Physical Sensations** - Discussion on "abiding" vs surrendering; locate contraction in body (e.g., chest tightness in anger)
- 4 (07:20) **Meditation to Interrupt Storylines** - Basic meditation trains returning from rabbit holes to body sensations
- 5 (11:42) **Learning Body Awareness** - Therapy/meditation reveals disconnect; hand on body while speaking integrates emotions
- 6 (16:17) **Meditation Shifts Goal from Change** - Not trying to feel differently (e.g., anxiety); accept and abide for natural change
- 7 (20:02) **Handling Physical Pain** - Back pain example: PT helps, but attitude of non-resistance key; relax into it
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Show Notes
What do you do when you feel anxious or insecure? Many of us try to push the feeling away, or we ruminate on it, or try to solve it, or avoid the thought altogether. But what would happen if we did the exact opposite?
The Buddhist nun and teacher Pema Chödrön is the author of many beloved books, including “When Things Fall Apart,” “Welcoming the Unwelcome” and — my personal favorite — “Comfortable With Uncertainty.” And she has a way of inviting people to befriend the parts of life that typically induce dread — from uncertainty and suffering to loss and discomfort. And she argues that the process of sitting with these experiences and emotions actually releases their power over us. In a time as chaotic and tumultuous as ours, she has so much practical wisdom to share.
In this conversation, she shares what it looks like to actually let go of difficult emotions, the art of “collaborating with reality” when things don’t go as expected, and how to awaken yourself to the “nowness” of life.
Mentioned:
Comfortable with Uncertainty by Pema Chödrön
When Things Fall Apart by Pema Chödrön
Welcoming the Unwelcome by Pema Chödrön
Another Kind of Freedom by Pema Chödrön
Book Recommendations:
Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior by Chögyam Trungpa
Zen Mind, Beginner’s Mind by Shunryu Suzuki
Enlightened Vagabond by Matthieu Ricard
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nyt
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