270: Disengagement Precedes Enactment: Mastering Countertransference with Dr. Karen Maroda
June 12, 2026
AI Summary
5 min readDr. Karen Maroda, a psychoanalyst and author of The Power of Countertransference and The Analyst’s Vulnerability, joins the podcast to unpack a specific, high-stakes clinical moment: the enactment. She defines an enactment as a discrete, mutual triggering event—a collision of the therapist’s and patient’s vulnerabilities that leads to an uncontrolled, often regrettable action. The therapist might say something sarcastic, fall asleep, or, as in Maroda’s own example, finally snap at a patient for enabling her adult son. The key signal, she says, is a feeling of compulsion: “When you feel compelled to do something, that’s how you know it’s an enactment.”
But Maroda’s central argument is that enactments are usually preceded by a quieter, more dangerous phase: disengagement. The therapist withdraws emotionally, becomes bored, passive, or overly solicitous, and avoids confronting a building frustration. The enactment then becomes an unconscious attempt to re-engage—a dramatic, often destructive solution to a problem that was already known.
The Mechanism: Disengagement as the Precursor
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What you'll learn
- 1 (00:14) **Introduction and Episode Roadmap** - Dr. Peter introduces Dr. Karen Maroda and previews the discussion on countertransference, enactments, and effective disclosure.
- 2 (01:47) **Defining Enactment as a Discrete Event** - Dr. Maroda clarifies the concept of enactment, arguing for a narrow, clinically useful definition over a broad, all-encompassing one.
- 3 (04:58) **The Argument Against Waiting for Enactments** - Dr. Maroda argues that enactments can be destructive and should be prevented, not welcomed as inevitable "grist for the mill."
- 4 (06:23) **Case Example: An Enactment of Frustration** - Dr. Maroda shares a personal example of an enactment with a patient she felt was enabling her adult son.
- 5 (13:10) **The Deeper Roots of the Countertransference** - Dr. Maroda connects her strong reaction to the patient's enabling to her own history with her mother and twin brother.
- 6 (15:41) **Another Common Enactment: The Advice Trap** - Dr. Maroda describes a classic enactment with dependent patients who repeatedly seek advice.
- 7 (17:14) **The Danger of Rationalizing Therapeutic Failures** - Dr. Maroda cautions against the tendency to rationalize non-therapeutic behaviors by calling them "grist for the mill."
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Show Notes
In this episode of the podcast, Dr. David Puder sits down with Dr. Karen Maroda, a renowned psychoanalyst, assistant professor of psychiatry at the Medical College of Wisconsin, and author of influential books including The Power of Countertransference and The Analyst's Vulnerability. Together they explore a powerful clinical insight: disengagement precedes enactment. Learn how therapists' unprocessed countertransference (irritation, boredom, guilt, anger, or helplessness) often leads to emotional withdrawal before erupting into destructive enactments that can rupture the therapeutic relationship.
Dr. Maroda shares candid examples from her own practice, including a personal enactment she later processed with her patient, and demonstrates practical strategies for catching disengagement early, using constructive self-disclosure, and maintaining emotional presence. The conversation features a live role-play, deep discussion of parentification in therapists' histories, setting healthy boundaries, managing guilt and shame, and turning potential pitfalls into opportunities for deeper connection.
By listening to this episode, you can earn 1.25 Psychiatry CME Credits.
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