How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era | Better in Person

September 2, 2026

AI Summary

5 min read

“I felt flattened out,” says Anne Pasternak, director of the Brooklyn Museum, describing the year after October 7. Her husband gave her a small painting of a boxer knocked flat on the canvas, still wearing his gloves. “I felt really seen by him in that moment.” That image—a fighter who is down but not done—captures something about running a major cultural or educational institution right now. Pasternak and Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University, sat down with Steven Dubner for a conversation about what it means to lead in a moment when trust in institutions is low, the political temperature is high, and the people in charge are expected to absorb the blows.

Two Institutions, One Predicament

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What you'll learn

1 (00:12) **Episode Introduction** - Host Steven Dubner sets up the premise: running a major institution (a museum and a university) during a period of low public trust.
2 (01:06) **The Guests Define Their Institutions' Purpose** - Pasternak and Roth describe what their organizations are fundamentally *for* in the current climate.
3 (02:59) **On Principles vs. Pragmatism** - Roth explains his pragmatic leadership philosophy, distinguishing it from rigid principles.
4 (03:55) **The Feeling of Being a Punching Bag** - The conversation turns to the personal toll of leading during divisive times.
5 (05:28) **Defining the Institution: Encyclopedia vs. Community** - A discussion on the specific roles and reputations of the Brooklyn Museum and Wesleyan.
6 (09:00) **The Reality of Fundraising & Business Models** - Both leaders discuss the financial pressures and realities of their jobs.
7 (11:33) **Navigating External Criticism and Trust** - The discussion shifts to how the public views museums and universities.

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Show Notes

Anne Pasternak (Brooklyn Museum) and Michael Roth (Wesleyan University) tell Stephen Dubner how they keep the peace in the middle of a culture war.

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