EP: 463 There Are Two Powers in Heaven with Dr. Joel Muddamalle And Doug Van Dorn *members only trailer

September 10, 2026

AI Summary

5 min read

In a conversation recorded at Dr. Michael Heiser’s production studio, theologian Dr. Joel Muddamalle and author Doug Van Dorn sit down with the Blurry Creatures hosts to explore a figure they argue appears on nearly every page of the Old Testament: the Angel of the Lord. The episode is a deep dive into the identity, titles, and theological significance of this being, whom both guests identify as the pre-incarnate Christ. They push back against the common Christian assumption that Jesus is absent from the Hebrew Scriptures, arguing instead that a consistent Trinitarian reading of the Bible demands his active presence throughout.

The Angel of the Lord as a Trinitarian Test Case

Van Dorn frames the problem simply: many Christians treat the Old Testament God as a "unitarian entity," but the Trinity is present there from the beginning. He credits Heiser’s The Unseen Realm for introducing him to the idea that the Angel of the Lord is a distinct person within the Godhead—a "lesser Yahweh" who is fully God yet distinguishable from the Father. The hosts note that this idea makes some believers uncomfortable, especially in Reformed circles, where identifying the Angel of the Lord as God is sometimes considered heretical.

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What you'll learn

1 EP: 463 There Are Two Powers in Heaven with Dr. Joel Muddamalle And Doug Van Dorn
2 (02:00) **The Relational Trinity** - Opening discussion on the mystery of the Trinity as a relationship within the Godhead
3 (03:32) **Setting the Stage: Heiser's Legacy and Today's Topic** - Introduction of the conversation's purpose and context
4 (05:29) **Why the Angel of the Lord Matters** - Doug explains the significance of this often-overlooked biblical figure
5 (07:56) **Beyond the Title "Angel of the Lord"** - The character appears under multiple names and forms throughout the Old Testament
6 (08:28) **The Controversy: Is This Heresy?** - Joel identifies resistance to identifying the Angel as the pre-incarnate Christ
7 (10:14) **The Angel as Commander of Heaven's Armies** - Joel explains the cosmic military role of the Angel

+ Full timestamped outline available in the app

Show Notes

In some corners of the church, what Joel Muddamalle and Doug Van Dorn argue in this episode gets called heresy. Their claim is simple and enormous. The Angel of the Lord who stands before Joshua, speaks from the burning bush, and accepts worship without correcting it is the preincarnate Christ. The rabbis saw the tension too. They called it the Two Powers in Heaven, and they could not explain how two Yahwehs show up in the same verse. Doug wrote the book on this figure. Joel is the theologian in the room. Together, they build a case that Jesus is the general of the armies of God long before Bethlehem.
The evidence stacks fast. A commander who tells Joshua to remove his sandals on holy ground. A Word, a Name, a Glory, and a Wisdom that all keep behaving like a person. Play devil's advocate for a moment, and the only alternative to the Son of God is a lying entity stealing worship for itself. Recorded in Texas, on set for the brand new Grey Havens Report in honor of Michael Heiser, this fan-favorite lineup goes further than the show has ever gone on this question.
The full conversation lives behind the members' wall, where the deepest episodes are found. Become a member and hear it all at blurrycreatures.com/members.

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